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ebohlman said in April 29th, 2006 at 21:20

I notice something peculiar about this: We were supposedly too difficult for mainstream kids to put up with, but we were somehow not supposed to be too difficult to put up with each other. This is one of the strangest things about segregation to me. Somehow mainstream kids don’t have to put up with us, but we, who supposedly have less people skills, are supposed to figure out how to put up with each other.

I think that comes from the assumption of outgroup homogeneity (the cognitive bias/attribution error of assuming that everyone who doesn’t resemble oneself must therefore all resemble each other). “They’re not like us, so they’ll enjoy each other’s company.”

So do some disabled people, I have noticed. Physically disabled people don’t seem to want us in their own segregated schools, and I’ve seen many speak with more horror at being “lumped in with the retarded kids” than at being forcibly segregated in the first place. And many disabled adults, of all kinds, only want some kinds of disabled people, if any, around them.

While most of that is almost certainly just bigotry, there might have been a realistic fear that if they were thought to be associated with “mental problem” kids, they’d be treated as badly as them. Of course, that’s much less excusable in adults.

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Moggy said in April 29th, 2006 at 22:28

My schools were also segregated, but to a much more fine-tuned degree than it sounds like yours were… My district had completely separate schools for:
– Regular kids + physically disabled
– Physically disabled (home tutoring)
– Dangerous/violent/emotionally disturbed
– Intellectual impairment (Downs Syndrome, etc.)
– Autistics, kids with CP, and other “they’re typical-intelligence and nice, but need one-on-one support” situations. This group shared the normal/physically-disabled campus, had lunch with us, and had students on both sides cross-over as appropriate.

They changed all the rules after I left, though, even worse than what you described — all disabilities, ESL, pregnancy, kids holding a job to support their family, and basically anyone that needed any accommodations in one school that didn’t have classes at all (students just checked in with homework and maybe had an hour or two of tutoring), then the other one dedicated to mainstream-only.

I can guess the rationale behind keeping disruptive students (aggressive, loud, whatever) out of the mainstream classrooms, I just don’t entirely *like* it. It’s basically: mainstream pace, especially in advanced classes, is often high-speed, and having somebody constantly disrupt it would keep 30 other students from doing well. In contrast, from what you’ve said, the special ed classrooms generally weren’t exactly aimed at advanced-placement high-pace academic stuff, so derailing progress a bit each day wouldn’t do long-term harm. (I’m not saying that is fair or good, just making a guess as to the reason.)

“People with receptive language problems were … insisting that other people must make the effort no matter the cost. The idea of interpreters was rejected by nearly everyone as simply impossible”

Must have been one of the fights I wasn’t in… :-p The last one I participated in had most of the receptive-disabled people coming up with all kinds of ideas for ways the expressive-disabled ones might get around their difficulty, including interpreters, computer programs, and so forth… They were all rejected by the expressive-disabled people as being creativity-stifling. (I think that you and I actually suggested interpreters at almost the same time once, perhaps a year or two ago. I know that I didn’t stick around to see what happened… I got fed up with the constant on-list conflict, went no-mail, and much later just unsubscribed entirely.)

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ballastexistenz said in April 29th, 2006 at 23:26

There were problems on all sides of that fight, and yeah it was that one. I don’t want to dredge it up again, but I don’t think anyone was thinking entirely clearly by the end of it and definitely people on both ends of the thing were being totally irrational at times. And totally rational at others. It wasn’t as one-sided as it looked, from either side, nor was either side particularly monolithic. (I simultaneously saw the point of both and got fed up with both by the end of it, and the whole time I wondered why on earth people couldn’t just talk about it without getting, and seemingly staying near-permanently, pissed off at each other.)

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Kristina Chew said in April 30th, 2006 at 0:57

All “special ed” educators and personnel need to read your account. Charlie, I know, has leanred to live with a lot more than I ever had to at his age…..or ever will have to.

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Justthisguy said in April 30th, 2006 at 1:07

May I dare say that La Professora Grandin got something right, here? I write about her account of having been taught formal manners when a kid. I, too, raised Southern as I was, was taught to be polite, use formal salutations, not to stare at, or make fun of weird people, say Yes Sir, Yes Ma’am, etc. and so forth. May I suggest that the people into whose company Miss B. was thrown necessarily had to be polite to each other to avoid even worse problems than those already imposed upon them?

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ballastexistenz said in April 30th, 2006 at 1:26

I… er… wouldn’t exactly call what we did “politeness”. <snicker> At least, no version of it I’ve ever seen taught anywhere. No formal salutations, no sirs and ma’ams, some people still made fun of weird people, and staring certainly occurred. (Although staring was strongly discouraged if what you were staring at was teacher-on-kid abuse, at which point you were supposed to avert your eyes before a teacher started bugging you.)

Although staring didn’t occur to the degree that it does on the outside, I think, because we weren’t as weird to each other after awhile as we would look to outsiders.

I mean, I honestly forgot at one point that anyone would be shocked by a kid jumping onto the roof and peeing on police officers. Or kids jumping on the roof in general, the roof was fairly popular. As was people dropping their pants when they were mad. (I had, by that time, quit removing clothing when mad, but I’d certainly done so not long before I got there.) Or having most of their clothes stripped off when they were “bad”. Or screaming and cussing in the courtyard. Or other stuff that I’m guessing I probably shouldn’t get too graphic about. So various sorts of nudity and related strong-in-the-outside-world taboos certainly didn’t get a lot of stares, at least from me. Not because I was being polite, but because it was normal there.

Now I’m remembering a CD I have with historical information about Ohio’s state institutions. One woman on the CD recalled going in there, and seeing a lot of people nude or partially nude, and doing all sorts of things that don’t normally happen in public in the outside world. At which point an old man who lived there walked up to her and said, “What the hell are you looking at? This ain’t no zoo!” Nobody ever said that outright at any institutions, including that particular school, that I was at, but I can easily picture a situation like that happening there.

But… yeah, I think “putting up with each other” might be the word, because it’s not like we always did it nicely, or gracefully, but we managed it. Polite wouldn’t be the word for nearly any of us, although there were of course a couple of unfailingly, unnaturally (i.e. institutionally) polite kids there, since that’s one way to stay out of trouble with staff.

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Justthisguy said in April 30th, 2006 at 2:32

Well, I reckon y’all weren’t allowed to use the traditional Southern remedy for cases in which one was polite, and the other party was nonetheless rude; that is, call ‘em out!

Being mean to people, offending their sensibilities, etc, that’s just yuckypoo! (i.e., rude)

Talk about an imbalance in social power!

Dang! Had I been tossed into your situation, I don’t think I would have done nearly as well as you, and I am, as I said, “mostly normal”.

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rocobley said in April 30th, 2006 at 11:37

Off topic but, re the Chris De Burgh, *PLEASE* tell me you don’t like his music.

On topic - this is an interesting one really. On the one hand, I would certainly argue that disabled kids generally should not be segregated in special schools if at all possible - from what I know of special schools most of them aren’t much good. On the other hand, if a student is engaging in generally disruptive behaviour on the level of climbing on to the roof and peeing on passers-by, then some action has to be taken. There are obviously limits in any society, as to what is acceptable and what is not.

Leading on from this I can’t help feeling that the view behind lumping all these kids together in school that you described, that is the idea that because all the kids were learning disabled they’d be able to tolerate each other while non-disabled kids couldn’t possibly be expected to tolerate the disabled kids, might have a tiny amount of truth in this. Quite simply, this is that the behaviours that you describe were normal in the school, while clearly being not only not normal but totally unacceptable in the outside world, and so none of the other disabled children in the school would be particulary shocked by these behaviours.
Mind you, having considered the wide range of kids in your school (including dyslexic children!) that probably wouldn’t have applied to quite a few of the children anyway.
I have to say, I’m rather at a loss as to the solution here - I suspect that to accomodate children with serious behavioural problems will require some pretty radical thinking on the part of educationalists.

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ballastexistenz said in April 30th, 2006 at 12:54

Re: Chris De Burgh, I like some of his music. I dislike some of his music too. Take your pick.

Re the rest…

The post isn’t meant to be an argument in favor of segregation. It’s just an interesting note on how the outside world thinks it shouldn’t have to deal with everything that we ended up having to deal with anyway.

I also have a problem, in situations like that, with locating the “behavioral problem” in the child, like it’s a disease or a symptom or something like that, because it’s too complex for that. Certainly it’s not a trait of an individual that must be “accommodated” though.

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Jannalou said in April 30th, 2006 at 20:07

I don’t know what your take on this might be, but I tend to assume that a “behavioural problem” is usually a result of something *someone else* did or is doing, and so the behaviour is that person’s natural response to the stressor. So the behaviour itself doesn’t need to be “accommodated”, so much as other people need to take into account that they are not blameless in the situation.

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rocobley said in May 1st, 2006 at 6:54

It’s very likely that that is true. No-one, whether disabled or otherwise, acts violently or disruptively without there being some reason. In a classroom situation, merely the usual sights & sounds might cause an autistic child to erupt. So the question is, how to accomodate children with different needs and reactions to the norm, without segregating them (which I don’t agree with) or making it more difficult for other non-disabled children.

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ballastexistenz said in May 1st, 2006 at 7:53

I’m actually not sure about the “making it more difficult for other non-disabled children” part. Because there’s a possibility that they already have it unnaturally easy. I’ve talked to several people whose parents were told that they could not be educated in a regular classroom because their wheelchair would be distracting, for instance. If merely the sight of people different than them is difficult, then I think they’re going to have to get used to some difficulty, and I think they’d be a lot more capable of it if they didn’t have this sense that they were the ones who should be there and anyone else was only there conditionally.

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mike stanton said in May 1st, 2006 at 15:06

In the UK our schools are so target driven with baseline assessment for pre-schoolers, then key stage assessment at 7, 11, and 14 and competitive public examinations at 16 and again at 18 for those who choose to stay at school beyond the statutory age of 16. League tables are published so that parents can see which are the “best” schools. Middle class parents move house or even change religion (part of our state system are faith schools.) If a school is deemed to be failing the inspectors move in and it can be closed if it does not meet targets.

That is the reason why my school for severe learning difficulties has tripled in size in twenty years. The government and the local authorities push so-called inclusion as an option when they really mean integration. Everybody has to fit in and not damage the school’s performance on the standard tests.

It is often the case that a “failing school” is one that has taken in the kids excluded from other local schools. The kids and their parents like the school and want to keep it open. But they cannot match the results of the neighbouring schools that have effectively selected the academically able and the undemanding pupils.

In a situation like that a segregated school can be a lifesaver for some kids. We are not expected to compete in the exam stakes. We may still be judged against those standards when we are inspected. But most of the time we can seek to create a nurturing environment for some damaged kids and rebuild their self esteem and find areas of success for them.

It is not ideal. Sometimes it is like having chickens and foxes in the room together. But my experience is of special schools that are nowhere near as horrific as the institutions that Ballastexistenz describes.

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rocobley said in May 2nd, 2006 at 6:16

“I’m actually not sure about the “making it more difficult for other non-disabled children” part. Because there’s a possibility that they already have it unnaturally easy. I’ve talked to several people whose parents were told that they could not be educated in a regular classroom because their wheelchair would be distracting, for instance.”

Well, no doubt that’s true, but let me give you a theoretical example to illustrate what I mean. Imagine the following situation: an autistic kid is educated in a normal classroom along with other non-autistic kids. The autistic child finds the noise of the kids, their natural behavour, even their smell (which the autistic kid can percieve due to hypersensitivity), to be unbearable for more than very short periods and therefore has almost constant tantrums, screaming fits etc. which make teaching the class impossible because of all the noise the autistic child is making. Objectively, the autistic child’s response to his/her surroundings is disruptive to the other kid’s education (obviously it’s not this child’s fault). The question then arises: how do you accomodate this autistic child in a mainstream setting in such a way so that he won’t have these sensory responses which both ruin his school experience and disrupt his fellow students’ education?

Obviously there must be a way - I suspect in this kind of situation it would involve some form of assistive technology, but I’m just using this as an example to argue that it’s not only intolerance on the part of others that is the problem. There are wider issues as well and accomodating *all* children in one setting rather than segregating at least some disabled ones will require some redesigning of the education system itself.

BTW Chris De Burgh should be thrown into a pit and concreted over. And we’ll throw in Phil Collins just for good measure! ;-P

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Jannalou said in May 2nd, 2006 at 11:02

“Imagine the following situation: an autistic kid is educated in a normal classroom along with other non-autistic kids. The autistic child finds the noise of the kids, their natural behavour, even their smell (which the autistic kid can percieve due to hypersensitivity), to be unbearable for more than very short periods and therefore has almost constant tantrums, screaming fits etc. which make teaching the class impossible because of all the noise the autistic child is making. Objectively, the autistic child’s response to his/her surroundings is disruptive to the other kid’s education (obviously it’s not this child’s fault). The question then arises: how do you accomodate this autistic child in a mainstream setting in such a way so that he won’t have these sensory responses which both ruin his school experience and disrupt his fellow students’ education?”

If a child is having that much difficulty in being around other people, why would you even consider forcing that?

I may be wrong, but I think Amanda has said that some people can’t be “included” the way people think of inclusion/integration/whatever-you-want-to-call-it, and that needs to be respected and taken into consideration when desiging school programs for the disabled.

In this example, though, the most obvious solution (to me) would be to allow the child as many breaks from the classroom as he needs. If that results in him missing more than half the class, then maybe he’s just not able to be in a group learning situation, and efforts should be made to have his learning take place separately - coming into the larger group for activities in which he is able to participate as an equal (such as those taking place outside, perhaps).

But for the sounds, there are earplugs and protective earphones, if he can tolerate them. And for behaviour that is intolerable because he is seeing it, he could perhaps be seated at the front of the classroom. For smells, I am not sure that there is anything yet. If there was, I would definitely be using it. ;)

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Feministe » Mundane Stress said in May 3rd, 2006 at 15:46

[...] Disability-rights advocates have made the same point. Disability hate crimes do happen. People with disabilities are still automatically institutionalized. They are subject to shocking abuse and discrimination. They face hatred, conscious and overt. But they also suffer from ableism in ways that are less dramatic–at least, for someone who doesn’t actually have to deal with ableism. Waiters don’t take their orders. Teachers underestimate them. Public officials ignore them. Authors, screenwriters, dramatists, journalists, and directors (and the people paying their salaries and consuming their work) either ignore or use them. Even things like the height of a toilet seat or the absence of a railing or the width of a corridor are coded scorn–things that may seem minor unless they keep you from shopping, or going to the bathroom, or entering a building. “Little acts of degradation.” [...]

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Erika said in May 4th, 2006 at 1:59

Unfortunately, we have a one-size-fits-all education system. It’s bad enough for “normal” kids who have different skills, IQs, and learning speeds. We’re never going to have a better system for all students, disabled or not, without overhauling the whole thing and actually committing decent funds. I’m not going to hold my breath for that to happen. It’s difficult enough to get politicians to commit enough money for our current crap system.

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J said in June 21st, 2006 at 16:27

I was one of the physically disabled kids who was in ’special’ kindergarten and mainstream classrooms starting in grade one. The special education was the kind that mixed all different types of disabilities, like paraplegia, dyslexia, Down’s Syndrome, etc. I can’t recall any autistic children in the room, but it’s possible.
The fear of being ‘lumped in with the retards’ was in my case, largely learned from the adults. In the special school, and the various ’special’ activites that followed me through middle school, the adults exercised a lot of control over the children. Considerably more than was typical for even five and six year olds. Walking from one room to the other was monitored. Not only did you have to request a bathroom break, but they were counted and charted for everyone, even if there was no medical reason. But I was considered exceptionally bright, so I got to spend my kindergarten year doing first grade reading with the normal kids (same buliding, seperate program).
One incident I recall from when I was five was going off to the first grade classroom by myself, since that was where I was supposed to be next. An aide stopped me, told me not to wander off, and insisted that I accompany her and the other children to the kindergarten classroom, despite my efforts to explain. It wasn’t until I arrived that the teacher told her I should go to the first grade classroom for reading.
In restrospect it’s pretty trivial, but it made a vivid impression on me. There was one place where I could go and learn interesting things and be listened to and treated with respect, but it was only because I was bright and almost normal. And people from special education would be watching, to drag me back with the the others.
In elementary school this was reinforced in a lot of little ways. I needed a parental permission slip to go on the jungle gym. I had to do all the regular class duties, including carrying the basket with the lunches down to the cafeteria (ever carry a washtub while on crutches?) and it was implied that if I couldn’t I didn’t belong in a regular classroom.
In some ways I can name, and a lot of ways I can’t, I picked up the impression from the staff that me being in the mainstream classroom, and by extension, learning interesting stuff, being treated with respect, and having a future, were all contingent on ‘keeping up’ with the normal kids, not just academically, but in a lot of undefined ways. And that I never quite could. So there was the fear of the special program waiting to jump out and snatch me if I screwed up or wandered off. So anything that connected me to the kids in special education seemed dangerous.
This isn’t intended as a justification of my attitude as a kid, but to explain where a lot of it came from, and how programs and administrators can help bring this situation about.

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Philip said in March 4th, 2009 at 11:27

The Report of the Survey of the Schools in Chicago, published in 1932, found that special classes were “so regarded that they cast a stigma on anyone who is assigned to them.[...] If this attitude of mind were confined to teachers and principals alone it would be bad enough, but it inevitably spreads to the entire school community.” [...] Regular pupils were “inevitably trained to look upon the more unfortunate of the school community as persons to be avoided, ridiculed, or maliciously tormented.”

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