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elmindreda said in January 8th, 2006 at 9:19

The funny thing is, if one measures the value of people by their contributions to society, then it should be the other way around. I’ve learned far more actually useful and eye-opening things from you, Cal Montgomery and others who don’t fit Grandin’s idea of the “useful autistic”, than I ever did reading what comes out of the “AS elite” community, despite the fact that until six months ago, Grandin would probably have put me in the “useful” category.

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ballastexistenz said in January 8th, 2006 at 10:07

I would think that contributions to society (if measured at all) take a lot of different forms. Cal and I both contribute certain ways of looking at life. Temple Grandin is usually looking at an entirely different area, from a totally different angle, when she’s doing information-stuff. Most of her work is in animal science.

But I still don’t think I could describe what I think my main contribution to society is, or what anyone’s main contribution to society is. To me it is like we are all pieces of something larger than even human society and each piece has a definite and exact place, and the shape of that place is the shape of our lives, which even we can’t totally understand.

Which is why I draw a huge distinction between “I can’t figure out what this person contributes” and “This person doesn’t contribute” — that’s a distinction that a lot of people don’t make. I tend to view all people as integral in some way to the overall shape of things and to be integral in ways that are not possible to understand, and that are never going to be quantifiable in terms of rather transient human cultural values such as “having a job” or “being a very polite person” or “giving out certain information” or whatever.

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elmindreda said in January 8th, 2006 at 13:23

I tend to view all people as integral in some way to the overall shape of things and to be integral in ways that are not possible to understand, and that are never going to be quantifiable in terms of rather transient human cultural values such as “having a job” or “being a very polite person” or “giving out certain information” or whatever.

Yes, that’s the sentence I was looking for. Thank you.

I never could understand why people with certain jobs (or no jobs) were less valued than others, I guess at least partly because so many important people in my life have been on disability. I did internalise such values for myself, however, to be able to push myself past the breaking point before my diagnosis. Since my collapse, I’ve had to reverse that conditioning, which led to a conclusion much like yours even including me.

Hmm, I feel a blog entry forming.

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Autism Diva said in January 8th, 2006 at 19:32

Dr. Grandin’s comments are awful.

I know a man who is absolutely, positively Williams syndrome. He had the blood test which is conclusive in WS world… He’s mostly normal looking but has traces of the ‘williams face”. He’s quite attractive, by my standards and his wife is really pretty. When I used to exchange emails with him on a regular basis, he was in a masters-degree program studying some kind of physiology/biology.

He wasn’t “normal.”

Anyway, he’s unusual for WS, maybe, for his level of education, but it proves Grandin’s stupid broad statement about having “nothing back there” is wrong, besides being rude and unethical.

This young man had his photo and information on one of the main WS websites for a day or two, I saw it, then he asked for them to take it down. He got hate mail from parents of “low functioning” WS kids who seemed to hate him for being “high functioning”, so he didn’t want people to know his email or his story. So I won’t tell you his name.

Things may have changed for him, I don’t know, I don’t follow WS news now.

I resent that she values the analytical side of autism so highly. My ASD kid is more like the WS people, which is how I got into WS. Xe’s not that analytical, not obviously, and xe loves people, though xe’s not very sophisticated at all at chit-chat or understanding others’ motivations, etc.

I’m guessing she’d say that I contribute to society or to the gene pool enough to justify my existence, but that my child is so much dead weight to be tolerated.

I resent that.

Hard to say what she’d say about my ex-husband–my kids’ father, or his mother or her mother….

Grandin just dodged a bullet, she could have ended up in a back ward somewhere and dead at age 15 from neglect, but she was born into a rich educated family. She’s only “high functioning” because of all the extensive help she’s received. Not that support is the only thing that makes people “high functioning.” My child couldn’t be “high functioning” like Grandin with all the support in the world.

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redlami said in January 10th, 2006 at 6:07

I admire Dr. Grandin, and I confess I need to go back and read the complete interview, but feel compelled to note that as a vegetarian, I question the value of her own contributions to society. From my perspective, she makes it easier to justify the slaughter of millions of animals each year just because we believe they’re suffering a little less than they used to. I’m not really that radical a veggie, but it is worth considering that a person’s overall value to society is a very relative quantity.

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Estee said in February 4th, 2006 at 13:04

I’m glad you brought this up…the entire Autism community, from within and without, is far too fractionalized and Temple’s arguments are ridiculous. I can’t believe she can segregate like this!

Estee

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Ettina said in March 27th, 2006 at 10:21

Could you tell me the title of the book that talks about that woman with Williams Syndrome? Or what the book was about?
It’s ironic, in a sad way, because of all the various rare syndrome groups I’ve found, the Williams Syndrome community seems to be more tolerant of diversity than many others. There are things on this on WS page about looking for the silver linings of troublesome traits, and about recognising that “mentally retarded” people should be given jobs related to their strengths/interests, which for WS people tend to be music and interacting with people. And WS broke my stereotyped view that chromosome anomalies (WS appears to be due to 7q11 deletion) never result in increased ability in any area. I thought the only possible “benefits” of a chromosome anomaly would be character traits like the tendency for Down Syndrome people to be very caring (not saying all are like this, but I know of some examples where a DS person did a nice thing an NT wouldn’t have done. For example, my Dad knew this guy who decided to try to pick a fight with a “retard” and the guy he decided to fight with, who had Down Syndrome, was very reluctant to fight. He kept saying “people get hurt in fights”. But finally he gave in, punched the NT guy, knowcked him out, then burst into tears, saying he’d told that guy people got hurt in fights.)
This one phrase I particularly like, “mentally assymetric”, was coined by someone involved in Williams Syndrome, I think maybe a parent of a WS child.

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empathy said in April 1st, 2006 at 10:20

OK, so I guess my comment on another tread about Temple Grandin was not all that welcome…
My question is the same. I would really appreciate a dialogue with folks who have Autism to help me.

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[...] This Not-Me-ism runs counter to what the neurodiversity movement proclaims itself to be—and, unfortunately, it’s rampant. Every day, people who say they believe in neurodiversity decide who is “neurodiverse” and who is not, whose neurology is worthy of acceptance and whose is not. For a long time, I believed that my neurology was valuable because of the marketable skills it gave me. (“Yeah, I may not be able to find the grocery store alone or follow the flow of a conversation all that well, but I can write essays and read Latin!”) That’s not acceptance. That’s trying to prove your own worth to yourself when you don’t think you have any. At its heart, neurodiversity is about the worth each of us have by our very existence—we don’t have to earn it and we don’t have parade it out like a pedigree to anyone who asks. [...]

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Mike said in April 27th, 2006 at 12:58

I once knew a woman with Williams Syndrome- she seemed quite content being
herself- very outgoing, friendly lady who did improv theatre and loved to
party. She was so friendly and outgoing and much loved by her friends and
collegues yet often stressed by the lack of response she got from people-
definately not a case of “nothing back there”.

I wholeheartedly agree with everything you write Amanda
(We have chatted at TMOB several times). I am so-called
neurotypical but not so vain as to not realize that I am both high functioning
AND low functioning-depending on the situation. Who is to judge? When I am
with a group of autistic people-suddenly deficits I didn’t know I had,
come to light (my awful memory or my vague communication style for instance)
I always say, some of the highest functioning people I know are
low functioning! Indeed I have one friend on the spectrum who is considered
low functioning by everyone in his life yet he has the most profound sense
of ethics- he has taught me so much about feeling powerless and policing
behaviors… Perhaps functioning, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder?

This HFA/AS Elitism is becoming rampant-keep up the excellent work in
debunking these myths.

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[...] This is an unfortunate addition to my previous post, Temple Grandin, displaying near-textbook “HFA/AS elitism”. Because I have obtained Temple Grandin’s expanded tenth-anniversary edition of Thinking in Pictures. Here are some quotes. [...]

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k t hill said in July 23rd, 2006 at 13:17

So sad the world. My son would definitely be regarded as low-functioning, but most who meet him like him, and he brings so much love into this home. My fear is not because of him but because of what others will try to do to him when his Dad and I are gone.

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The_P said in March 7th, 2007 at 15:40

Despite the fact that Lorna Wing has disowned both the AS label and the autism spectrum, the aspies are still trapped inside their little bubble that they’re somehow the alpha autistics of this fabricated hierarchy.

Even though I’ve been diagnosed with the AS label, I can’t stand the AS demograph online for these misguided views. Too arrogant for my liking.

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A True Monotheist said in February 4th, 2008 at 3:30

B”H

Shalom Aleichem,

I have noticed that *SOME*, not all, but *SOME* of my fellow AS have adopted the elitism that you describe. That is unfortunate. I want you to know that I do not share in it. I do not think that most AS folks do share in it.

Now, as for the cure vs. anti-cure issue, my problem with the “cure” faction is that they never define what they mean. Do they intend to identify the genes responsible for autism and then to terminate pregnancies based on gene detection? Do they intend to make such terminations *MANDATORY*? What does “Autism Speaks” mean when it suggests a cure? The ethical issues are tremendous, and the “cure” party does not tell us what they mean by the term. They make it impossible to have an honest discussion.

Let me be clear. I oppose eugenics. That is a form of evil that the world should have eschewed in 1945 at Nuremberg.

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A True Monotheist said in February 4th, 2008 at 3:39

B”H

Improper Grammar: “I do not think that most AS folks do share in it.”

Correction: “I do not think that most AS folks share in this elitism.”

Improper Grammar: “What does ‘Autism Speaks’ mean when it suggests a cure?”

Correction: “What does ‘Autism Speaks’ mean when this organization refers to a ‘cure’?”

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kewlade719 said in May 4th, 2010 at 0:43

I love how you expressed your thoughts on the quotes from Temple Grainden. I just saw the movie based on her, fabulous! You are very articulate and well spoken, I hope through practice to be a strong writer like you! I have been diagnosed with some disordes that make school extra stressful for me. I will continue to read your page:D..this is a neat page you have!
-Adrienne

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