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hollywoodjaded said in June 13th, 2006 at 20:20

This is an extraordinarily touching tribute, Amanda. With deepest thanks for all you do and deep appreciation for the stunning truth of your writing — HJ.

Please also allow me to convey my deepest condolences to Mr McCarron and his family. The Beauty of Katie shall never be forgotten — not ever.
In Peace, HJ.

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Jennifer said in June 13th, 2006 at 22:04

Thank you Amanda. I hope that I too, will take strength, and stand up for people and their humanity, no matter what.

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Not Mercury said in June 13th, 2006 at 23:30

Thank you so much for this.

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Jemal said in June 14th, 2006 at 10:11

Thank you for this.

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sndrake said in June 14th, 2006 at 12:45

I also thank you. It’s a strong reminder of the origins of my entry into the work I do. I was a frequent poster on bit.listserv.autism in those days, although I only managed one on that particular thread.

It was largely my experiences and the murders discussed on that list that led to my work with Not Dead Yet. Charles-Antoine was part of it, but there was also the murder of Tracy Latimer, a 12-year-old girl with cerebral palsy who was killed by her father.

Pro-euthanasia groups “adopted” Tracy Latimer’s father as a “poster” child for their movement (in case anyone wonders where pro-euthanasia groups are willing to go). Marilyn Seguin, the leader of one of the Canadian groups, was quoted in the NY Times saying Tracy’s father shouldn’t serve prison time because he and his wife “had already served a sentence” - of 12 years.

I went back and read the thread. It brought back some really good memories as well as bad ones. I was sitting in the Blackmore office/computer room when Avi Blackmore composed several of his messages in that thread. Not too surprising - the Blackmore house was my “adopted home” for several years when I was in Syracuse.

Thank you again - I have managed not to look back too much on those days lately. I think that’s a mistake.

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rocobley said in June 14th, 2006 at 16:42

Amanda, this is completely irrelevant to this discussion, for which I apologise. But I was wondering if the following had any interest for you:

http://leninology.blogspot.com/2006/06/human-nature-we-x-because-of-our.html.

This is a blog by a Marxist of which I am a keen follower, who has written a post on human nature which touches on the issue of medicalising ‘abnormal’ behaviour.

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Justthisguy said in June 15th, 2006 at 1:09

What Miss B. said. Amen, etc. Murder is murder, even if the victim is weird and strange.

But what if the victim is not good-lookin’, say old and decrepit, or born with a non-pretty face?

I and the law think that’s murder, too. I mean, what if she had not been such a cute kid? Plain-lookin’, or even ugly folks have a right to life, too. As do we all.

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rocobley said in June 15th, 2006 at 7:10

Incidentally, Katie McCarron looks absolutely lovely, and so unlike the stereotype of autistic children as unresponsive and so on. I wonder, if her mother had actually lived with her child, whether she would have done what she did?

Incidentally, Mike McCarron is Kate’s grandfather? Does anyone know what Kate’s father has said?

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ballastexistenz said in June 15th, 2006 at 13:14

Definitely, Justthisguy.

Katie had a family member who is willing to stick up for her, which is more than a lot of people have. She was very young, and very conventionally cute, too, which is also more than a lot of people have.

I’m too old to be cute, some people even go so far as to say ugly or grotesque, and I had a lot more “behavior problems” than it sounds like Katie did, so I’m quite aware a murder of someone like me would be considered more okay, and shouldn’t be.

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Lisa said in June 15th, 2006 at 23:54

Thank you for this eloquent and heartbreaking post. Your words continue to move me.

“I will do all these things, not for the hatred that some accuse us of, but for the love and value of all kinds of people, those I have known and those I have not.”

This brought tears to my eyes. Thank you.

best,
lisa

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Panda said in June 16th, 2006 at 0:24

Thank you very much for posting this. I cannot even fathom why someone would ever do this to thier own child, and with Autism as an excuse. Children are children, and should be loved and cherished, not destroyed.

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Zenmommy3 said in June 16th, 2006 at 0:52

You have given us a gift with your beautifully written tribute to Katie. As a mom of 3 ASD boys, I wouldn’t change a thing about them! Their unique outlook and gracious attitude is a blessing everyday. The focus should be on Katie and the life cut short, not the mother’s weakness.

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Justthisguy said in June 16th, 2006 at 19:27

“…too old to be cute…”. Miss B. says that, and she’s not yet 30 years old, as far as I know.

Now, *I* am too old to be cute, being male, having spent more than 50 years on this planet since birth, and drunk too much beer while doing so, which seems to have given me a non-cute amount of fat around my middle.

Cute is as cute thinks. Cute means “acute”, or “sharp”, anyway.

I think that Miss B. is pretty sharp.

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ballastexistenz said in June 16th, 2006 at 20:03

In the autism world, “too old to be cute” tends to start at around age 13 or so. That’s, at least, when people started pathologizing more and more things that had been previously “cute” in my life, and giving me less leeway than is given for the perceived attractiveness of younger childhood.

So, yes, too old to be cute. The dynamic starts fairly young. I didn’t claim to be old. :-) (But I am fat around the middle, no beer to blame it on though.) I do look a lot younger than my age, but I still look too old to get the leeway given to children.

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mike stanton said in June 18th, 2006 at 19:44

Thankyou Amanda

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andreashettle said in February 10th, 2007 at 23:50

This quote struck me as appropos for the theme of this post:

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.”
— Desmond Tutu
(http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/desmondtut106145.html)

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Emily said in March 2nd, 2007 at 7:22

Thank you for that article, I stumbled across some websites this morning with articles written by autistics. I never realised that autistic people could communicate. The impression I got from what I’ve read in the media was of people unable to think and without any understanding of the world. I was quite shocked to hear from people who are a hell of a lot more intelligent and literate than most.
What suprised me was the fact that I never hear these voices in the mainstream. The only people you hear from are relatives or medical professionals. I assumed that this was because such people couldnt speak for themselves. I am embarrassed at how wrong I was.
Does the media purposely silence the voices of autistics or is there just the assumption that parents and medical professionals know best?
It must be so infuriating to have people constantly claiming to speak on your behalf.
Perhaps my ignorance goes a long way toward explaining societies attitude toward the murder of those who are different, most people are ignorant and have little knowledge of autistic people.
Our opinions are formed by the information we are exposed to by the media, however unconciously we have picked it up.
Thankfully, we have the internet!! Best wishes,emily.

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noexcuses said in November 27th, 2007 at 0:32

Ok. Not sure how to put this…
I murdered my child. I don’t know if my child was autistic or not. Nuerological disabilities run in my family, but this had no bearing on what I did.
I murdered my child because I was fifteen and the child’s existence would have ruined my plans. I will not go to prison like the parents of those kids. But my kid never got a chance at life. Nobody will know whether my kid would have liked pretty lights or cats or Bert and Ernie shoes or climbing because my kid never got to experience any of that stuff. Noody will know what my kid would have looked like, or even their gender. My kid never even got to be born.

I could give you a longer list of reasons why I did it.But that would be giving excuses for murder. Which I don’t want to do. They are no better or worse than using autism as an excuse. Murder is murder and no excuse is valid.

But just because I did an evil thing doesn’t mean my life has lost its value. I am still capable of doing some good in the world. I did an evil thing, but I will not let that one deed dictate the whole of the rest of my life. I will not stick an “evil” label round my neck and decide I am incapable of good.

I believe it’s understandable that those parents murdered their kids. Not because of autism. Because I believe everyone is capable of muder. Because all cruelty is essentially saying “I would rather hurt someone than be put out.” Killing another person is just the most extreme form of that attitude. Everyone has that attitude. It can be as small as a hurtful word or as big as a genocide. But it;a always the same attitude. And that’s why I can’t judge those women, why I ca’t judeg dicatators who kill milloins of people. Becuase we are all the same.

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ballastexistenz said in November 27th, 2007 at 1:33

I want to say I agree very much that a person who has murdered someone retains their value as a human being. I think it is horrible that people who do all kinds of things are branded for life for it.

Another example I can think of is child molestation. I was molested as a child. I now have a completely good relationship with one of the people who did it, because he truly reformed. Another person who did it has not reformed but I retain a cordial relationship with him because there are other aspects to him besides that one really horrible one. This does not take away from them having done something awful, but doing something awful is not everything there is to them.

I do think there is a real tendency to dehumanize people who have done terrible things, and I think that tendency to dehumanize only perpetuates the terrible things that are done. It makes it seem like no matter what they do for the rest of their lives, they are wholly evil because they have done something that is evil.

And I don’t think most people understand evil, or the fact that the capacity for evil exists in all of us, or the situational factors that can bring out that evil.

And I think there are points where people are between a rock and a hard place and killing someone might be the best of several horrible options, even while it is still always an act of evil that seriously damages the mind of the person who does it as well as everyone affected by it.

And as a Christian (skip over this if you’re not interested in a quick jaunt into theology-land) I believe that all of us are sinners and capable of evil and that on some level all sin is equally awful in the eyes of God, but at the same time that all people should on some level be forgiven.

At the same time, while I believe just about everyone has the capacity to murder, clearly most people do not act on it. Most of us have something that holds us back from doing it in anything but the most dire circumstances (such as killing someone in self-defense or to protect another, or after being trained to kill as a soldier, etc). Most of us would not do it because the existence of someone else inconvenienced us.

And I think there’s a difference between acting on that potential and not acting on that potential. From what I’ve heard from people who have killed people (I haven’t done so myself), it very much changes some fundamental parts of the person’s mind. There’s a barrier that has been crossed and when the person does so, they know that they have potential to cross it again that they have to always be on guard about. While I would never say that I have experienced that on the level a murderer would, I have experienced a lesser version on the level that a violent person would. I have to be always on guard against doing those things in a way I would not have to be on guard had I never done them.

The fact that most people do not do those things means not all people are the same in this respect.

And while I don’t think that the prison and “justice” systems are a good answer to these sorts of things — in fact I believe they perpetuate them — I also know that when ethical and moral judgement on these things does happen it has to happen across the board, not just as applied to situations where the murder victim is white, non-disabled, middle-class, law-abiding, male, straight, and Christian. (Which is, by the way, why I don’t support the death penalty — I don’t believe that people forfeit their value as human beings by murdering people.)

And because of that, when lesser sentences are handed out to people who murder disabled children, and the murders are used to champion various causes (other than the cause of equality of disabled people or something), then that is a different kind of judgement going on. It’s not a judgement of the murderer. It’s a judgement of the murder victim. Just as when people don’t look too hard for mass murderers of prostitutes, or support the death penalty for certain kinds of criminals, or care about shootings in middle-class predominantly-white schools but don’t care about poor children of color killing each other. In all of these cases the judgement going on is a judgement of the victims as less real and less human and less worthy of being alive.

And when murders of some kind of people are judged to be understandable, then that is another kind of judgement of the murder victims.

So I agree with you on some points, but I don’t think it helps to claim these killings are understandable. I do think it’s important to remember that people who kill are indeed people, as are all people who do wrong (and that all people are on one level or another people who do wrong). And I also think it’s important to remember that we all have the capacity to do tremendous wrong, because we can’t avoid doing it if we don’t believe we’re capable of it. But I think it’s important, for the sake of those who end up dead because of these things, to take a strong stance that it’s wrong when people do make that choice, regardless of what kind of person the victim was. And to save the “understandable” stuff for some other time and place, because I don’t think this is it. That stuff actually (this has been studied) makes people less able to overcome their impulses to kill and abuse.

It’s also important to note that fifteen is about the upper limit of the age range in which a person when pushed to a certain point does not possess certain hardwired neurological barriers against extreme violence or murder. Someone that age or younger who has done those things is not, neurologically speaking anyway, doing the same thing as the act of someone whose brain has fully formed that barrier. This doesn’t excuse it either, but it’s not the same thing going on as what happens in the minds of adults who murder. What is important, though, overall, is maintaining that barrier if it already exists and rebuilding it if one has already crossed it and knocked it over in the process.

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noexcuses said in November 27th, 2007 at 2:04

When I said understandable, I did not mean ok or excusable. I meant that no-one should think they are too good to do stuff like that, or that somoene who has done it is irredemable.

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ballastexistenz said in November 27th, 2007 at 2:11

That makes sense, but it’s a word that is unfortunately very easy to misconstrue as condoning something, and many people will read it that way. Which is why I prefer the more precise definition you gave, that people who do it are not irredeemable and that people all have the capacity for evil.

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Charles said in November 27th, 2007 at 18:32

I came to this entry again, after following a link on the home page indicating that there were some recent comments made here. Even though a lot of time has passed since the events which inspired it have occurred, (and while it would be nice to read this now and be able to say “that was the past” - we can’t), it hasn’t lost any of its meaning or poignancy. Once again, I felt a lump in my throat and my eyes watering up. And while the powerful and positive message here hasn’t lost any of its relevance or impact, I would like to point out that the sting of hearing how some people excuse and justify these murders has lost some of its sharpness. While events such as these sometimes bring out the worst in people, they also bring out the best in people, as shown here, and that goodness reverberates further and far longer. It gives me hope. This posting, and comments which ensued, highlight everything I love about this community I stumbled upon long ago, which I am privileged and humbled to be a part of.

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